Panel - Session 3 | 2025 LA Preachers' Conference

The Pervasive Struggle of Pastoral Pride

Thomas, thank you for your word, brother. I was just thinking in my own heart about the countless amount of times that I've been confronted with my own overconfidence or pride. Yeah, just deeply encouraging and needed. Thank you.

Nam, Bobby, any thoughts on the talks tonight? Yeah, Thomas, thank you for that. And it dawns on me that that's probably the single unappreciated issue that every pastor has to struggle with, and it is their overconfidence, their self-trusting, right? Like, if you're a pastor in this room and you've been doing ministry for longer than three months—some of the brothers here, three months—you guys know what it's like to push through and preach when you know your heart is not where it should be. Or to lack preparation because you're confident that you can handle this. Like, there's so many ways that that demonstrates itself.

And if pride is not the biggest struggle that every pastor and spiritual leader has, I can't imagine what else it would be, you know. So, thank you for that word. That was very helpful.

Amen.

Cultivating Humility Through Family Accountability

I want to ask you three brothers, since you guys have been in the pastor longer than I have, given the way you describe pride almost like weeds that constantly come up and you describe it as an elusive sin. What are some ways that you guys have implemented trying to confront that or to try to weed your garden and your own soul over the course of your ministry?

One thing that the Lord has blessed me to do—I'm not so sure where it came from—but before communion services, throughout my ministry, I've always stopped and asked my wife, "Have I sinned against you in any way that I haven't humbled myself and confessed?" And then I ask my kids. And it's interesting when you ask the little ones, like, "Yeah, Dad, you were just way too mad." So, I may have said this last year, but that just holds me accountable.

I've just tried to make a commitment that when I do sin—and I do sin—that I'm not waiting for somebody to ask me. I try to. 1 John 1 talks about when we confess, and it's kind of this continuous tense. So, so that you confess so much we could call you a confessor. You're just saying what God says, you know, "Well, I made a mistake" or "I came up short" or "I'm sorry if it hurt you." Sorry is an accident word. Like, if I knock over your water, I'm like, "Oh, I'm sorry." But sin, there's intentionality to it, even. So I try to really own that and try to say the exact same words that the Bible says about my sin to those whom I'm accountable to: my fellow elders. And just so I don't have this thing about, I believe the hype that I'm somewhere where I know that I'm not. And I want to give a wear facade of being someone I'm not when I sin. That's—I'm a sinner saved by grace. So I want to confess that regularly, and that kind of keeps me from thinking that I'm beyond somewhere where I'll never get—that we will always be on a journey of fighting our sins on this side of eternity.

Yeah, I love what you were saying, Bobby. I don't know that I've placed like particular parameters. There's guys that speak into my life, on staff, etc. But if there's one thing I could commit myself to and that I'd encourage you brothers to commit yourself to, is lean into your family in a way that you are real. And what I mean by that is, they are the brunt of your sins more than almost anyone else. Right? Like, we're just naturally guarded against being sinfully angry towards church members, towards people that we are shepherding, etc. But we'll let our kids have it, you know. Like we'll say some stuff that's not appropriate.

And to live with them in the humility, the humiliation, of having to seek their forgiveness on a regular basis. Like, if you learn the habit of just being a genuine Christ-loving, flawed individual before your family who knows you better than anyone else, I think that serves to help you tremendously, right? Because at the very core of your being, when you are the most unguarded, if you are willing to confess and make things right there and be humble, then I think you see everything else, at least it helps you to see everything else in light of your undeservingness, and you lean into the grace of the Lord even more.

But I know there's single brothers out there—there's one at the end of this row right here. And if that concept is kind of just—if that's more theory than reality for you in terms of family and stuff, that's okay. I mean, that's what you're trying to get yourself toward even in your dating relationships. And if the Lord is so kind to you as to give you a godly wife in this world, that you are intentionally trying to lean into being as honest and humble and seeking forgiveness when you can.

And I think I said last year, like when it comes to our kids, man, brothers, I'll say there's a principle I tell every Christian, especially young believers, and especially, you know, chronologically young believers, is time and momentum doesn't make you more godly. Like, you've got to fight for that. And I wish I could tell you that with my kids—my youngest, I have four kids. My oldest is married; my son-in-law is over here. Winston's here. And my youngest is like sixteen and driving and very independent. I love my kids, but I wish I could tell you that over time, because all of them I've had to confess, you know, "Hey, yeah, Dad shouldn't have said that," or they confront me, "Dad, Daddy, you were mad, right?" And I'm like, "Yeah, maybe." And you have to seek their forgiveness like that.

I wish I could tell you that gets so much easier as they get it. It's the opposite. I just feel like, "Do I still owe you that?" Like, man, I'm the reason why you are alive, right? Like you just feel like it is not easy to maintain a posture of recognizing your unworthiness and at the same time embracing God's grace for us, right? And it's in that space that we will do our best ministry and service to our Savior. So, yeah, I appreciate it.

Radical Vulnerability and Discerning Opportunities

In terms of dealing with pride, I'll first just say that I'm such a proud person that the Lord is kind to constantly inflict me with challenges, whether that's—I mean, my brother pastor over here could attest—like, the Lord humbles me a lot. So, the older I get, the more I'm learning to try to position myself in such a way where the heavy hand of God is not on me. I mean, I think I've spent the vast majority of my life as a performing artist, and I think that has remapped my brain in some ways, and so I have to fight against that.

And so I constantly am praying, "Lord, make me disgusted at opportunities." So I try to—we were just talking about this earlier—I try to say no more than I say yes to certain things because I know my own heart, and it can bubble up. So I pray, "Lord, make me disgusted at opportunities," and if I don't feel disgusted, then I'll know I should do it. And then thirdly, I do think radical transparency, and maybe not even transparency but maybe vulnerability, because I think transparency is like, "Oh, I'm going to show you what I want you to see." Vulnerability is like, "Look and see." It's just there for you to observe.

And I try to have that first and foremost with my wife. God has been kind to give me a wife that's not impressed with anything I do. Just not. Don't bring that rapper stuff in here. But also, I have some good pastors that I'm not afraid to be like, "Yo, this is where I'm at. I know it's ugly. I'm not ashamed to tell you. I need you to help me in the process." So, I think those three things: learning to love the heavy hand of God, being disgusted when my heart wants platform and praying that God would make me disgusted, and then radical vulnerability.

That's such a good point about the difference between transparency and vulnerability. I was thinking like even just a couple weeks ago, I was sharing with a friend something I was struggling with, had struggled with, kind of something I was that the Lord was teaching me and getting over. But my friend, I think, rightly was discerning pride in me and warned me. He's like, "Hey, it sounds like you're virtue signaling right now." I had to tell him, "Like, I think you're right." You know, like, that's exactly what I was doing in my own heart in that moment: even confessing in a way to try to exalt myself, you know. So, instead of that vulnerability, I don't have a family. What are ways that you guys have tried to implement that kind of true humble feedback and cutting?

Fostering Accountability in Church Leadership

You mentioned that you wish that you could say that for your previous mentor. What are ways that you implement that in your own church and amongst your leaders so you're able to watch over each other's soul in that regard?

When I meet with a group of men—I lead a small group or trying to think what context would I do this in—probably that group and my elders, I just try to be like Thomas said, radically transparent. I mean, just radically transparent. I just don't want to give the guys that I'm training for ministry some false illusion that you're going to arrive at a state of spirituality where you don't have to fight sin and that you always win. So I try to be, and I've done men's conferences where I've even asked them to turn off the mic, turn that camera off, and I'm just like, just super radical transparent. So I just try to be, especially around men, I try to be super transparent.

I don't know that I do as good of a job as I could in terms of giving that kind of like having a particularly directed time for guys on staff with me, my elders, to kind of ask those hard questions. I could probably do a lot better job at that. But I will say this, one of the things that we have to get good at, just as men period, but particularly as pastors, is having friendships.

Like, I am really good friends with the guys that are my elders, particularly the staff elders, the guys that I've been doing ministry with for a long time. And we can and we do call each other to the table when we feel like, "Hey, you know how you said that? That just didn't sound right. Like, I don't think you should be saying that." And we'll push back. Like, guys, you know, one of the brothers would say, "No, no, no. I think that's right. I think I should say something like that." "No, I don't think you should. I think it sounded like so condescending. Like you know better than the way that the parents are parenting their kids." Like, you could say that better. And we can have those discussions because there's a genuine friendship.

I am the senior pastor. I use that title. Bunch of you, you know, the newer guys would be like, "I'm lead pastor," and all that. That's fine. I'm not mad. I'm an old dude. I'm a senior pastor, right? So, and but if you ask any of the guys on staff, none of them will say I'm their boss, because that's not the structure. We operate as friends, and we could speak quite frankly into each other's lives. And so I would say that you have to—like, vulnerability requires this commitment of love that feels like brotherhood. And if that's tough for you guys, man, this is kind of why the guys put something like this together: meet guys in ministry, become friends, be okay to speak about struggles and not judge them and have them not judge you, and walk that out with each other. That's so valuable to you. Otherwise, who do you have? I mean, family is a key source, and that's the first source. But after that, I think it's your deep friendships that are a guide to help you out in those areas.

Let me be super controversial for a second. I've been tracking just because I know him personally, Tony Evans, and I've just been tracking kind of what they've gone through this past year. And they had a restoration celebration ceremony for him Sunday. And so they just said how he's gone through everything they've asked him to do for a year and that they were restoring him, and the whole congregation started applauding and cheering. He walks onto the stage and they said, "We're not bringing him back on staff, and he won't be our senior pastor anymore." And I'm like, "You restored him to what?" I mean, you got everybody clapping and cheering. And we—they just said, "Whatever he did, he won't be on staff here again or preach here again." And they just said, "But we pray God just use him all these other ministries." So I'm like, "So you're going to send him out to other churches and let him preach, and you won't let him preach at your church? He's going to lead the Urban Alternative, and you won't let him lead at your church? Like, what did he do?" It was decades ago.

So we just, you know, we just need this kind of radical transparency. And men, listen, your Bible doesn't gloss over the sins of anybody. I know Abraham pawned off his wife twice. I know David sinned, and he was the king. And he wrote about it not in one Psalm, but two. And so this idea that we have to somehow hide sin, Jesus doesn't lose any patience, but he doesn't operate in the dark. We have to confess our sins, brothers. And you have to model that for your family and for your church and for the men that you're raising up. This idea that you're supposed to be some—you if you're the perfect sinless leader, then you're the only one who's ever been. And you're not that guy. And don't pretend to be him.

Yeah, I mean, I think there are—I have guys on staff with me that we just have a really good chemistry, but I also have lay elders that don't have that chemistry. And so to the degree that those elders are just willing to be open and expose parts of their life will be to the degree that will, in our elder meetings, ask harder questions. So, there have been seasons where I've had elders that play their cards close to their chest, and we've had to ask, "What's your sex life look like? What's your thought life look like? How are you spending your money?" Like those kinds of questions, because if you don't ask, they'll be transparent but not vulnerable. You know, "I'm doing all right. You know, I'm struggling with a couple things, but it's all good."

So if you have those kinds of elders, you really got to create a culture—and I come from a context where I learned to be an elder where you didn't ask those questions at all, and the consequences were devastating. So in the fallout or in the wake of that, I've tried to quickly establish a culture that says if we're not just going to be radically vulnerable, then we're going to force—we're going to punch the awkward and ask hard questions to kind of smoke it out of people. So there's both. There's brothers that you're best friends with, and I have those guys on staff. They're my best friends. I would not feel any shame saying anything to them, and have confessed sin to them. But then other elders, they just—it's just not as easy. So, you got to really you got to probe a bit.

Recommended Resources for Humble Growth

Yeah. Discipling them intentionally in that direction. We have a couple minutes for questions. David and Sam are going to steal a mic from one of the two, three of you. So, run around. If you have a question that's brief, that would be helpful for everyone and is not dumb, please raise your hand, addressing Thomas by the way. David, good to see you guys. What you said about certain things and, you know, saying no to them as you're battling pride. What does that look like? Could you unpack that a little bit about what you're saying no to and why, and maybe what advice you would give to for us to say no to things we shouldn't say no to.

Yeah, that's a great question, and I don't know if I have like a black and white answer to it, because I have said at one season, "I'm just never going to preach at a conference. I'm only going to preach in my local church." And then I was challenged by some brothers that I do love, some men in my church, and even men outside of my church that mentor me. They encourage me, "Brother, you should do this," or "you should do that." So I think I get really nervous if it's like a big conference, and there's a lot of promotion and all of that. And, you know, I just know those deals because I come from that world. And so I immediately just shut those down.

I tend to do things that will help either pastors or will help church members. I'm not interested in like the big cultural, like, "You know, we're going to bring you out here because you're the culture guy," or "you understand creativity," that stuff. I just—it's rare that I will do those things. I care about the local church. I care about pastors. And so those tend to be the things that I'll say yes to. And then I do—my elders will tell me, like, I got one elder—not Andre, I'm talking about another elder—that he'll just tell me, "Dude, no. Don't do that. Why? Why would you even entertain that? Stop. Don't do it." And I'll be like, "All right." So, again, if you're communicating with your elders and they know your patterns or they know what might be enticing to you, just defer to them. "Should I do it?" That'll—that's a great way to limit the amount that you do and also to weed out the ones you shouldn't be doing.

Last question. Sorry, name church. Jeff Amanda, Church of Orange County. Do you each have a book recommendation that was helpful for you to grow in humility, other than Scripture, of course?

I can't think of it. Sorry. The senior citizen is after nine, so it's hard to remember names. There's a small worksheet, a workbook called *Pride to Humility* by Stuart Scott. And I love that, and I'll take like interns and young guys through that because it just asks these excellent questions about pride and about being self-focused and just challenges you a lot. It's just like, "Just answer all these questions." And it's really challenging because like at some point, a lot of these, you're like, "Uh, let's take a quick break," you know what I mean? Because it could be hard for you. But I mean, I'm sure there's a lot of other ones. *Humility* by Andrew Murray. There's a bunch. But something just practical like that, you know, where there's just a series of questions. I'm sure other pastors have come up with good ones like that too, just ask like, "How much of your thinking and of your heart is meditating around what's good for you and for you and by you, versus it's for the Lord?" So...

I would just echo Stuart Scott. He's a really good counselor. So, people who are good counselors ask really good, hard, probing questions. But I mean, I quoted Jonathan Edwards. He has a wonderful breakdown of pride, and it's super helpful. I can—maybe I'll get you that resource because it's free. It's online somewhere. I can find it and send it to you. I'm always down for free. My wife is always down for free, that's for sure.

*Humility* by C.J. Mahaney is a book that I go back to probably every year. But I think personally the most helpful thing has been asking people I love to give me honest feedback on my soul, and not responding to what they say, and actually just sitting there and choosing to go on a walk later and just not wallow in self-pity, but actually try to think through it and apply the cross to my own life.

Okay. My kids are 30 to 20, and I've just asked them like, "What's it like to be raised by Robert Scott?" And "What's it like to be—" And so one of my kids wrote me a four-page letter, and we'll meet and we'll talk. And I listen, and sometimes I don't want to say, "Say what you talking about, girl, that's crazy." But I'm—but I like, you know, I listen. I'm like, and I asked my wife, "Honey, she said, just help me like process that." And yeah, that was really humbling but really helpful.